Our Round Table questions for the first chapter:
So, in what ways did Carolyn resonate with you?
In what ways do you differ from Carolyn?
What do you think Carolyn’s biggest issue is?
Do you think this is a common issue for women?
Our Participants:
Stacy McDonald from Your Sacred Calling and author of the book, Anne from Our Homeschool and White Washed Feminists, Sarah Mae from Like a Warm Cup of Coffee, and Lynn from Indelible Grace, and Janet of Exulting In The Cross.
The Discussion:
Lynn:
<< So, in what ways did Carolyn resonate with you? >>
Probably in putting off general organization and housework, then getting
frustrated and embarrassed about it. Too much time on the internet. This is not nearly as much of a problem as it used to be, but it could be a lot better. I am thinking of reserving it for the late afternoon only, when it will feel like a nice treat to sit down and facebook or e-mail friends, and surf, comment on blogs, etc..
<< In what ways do you differ from Carolyn? >>
Well, my parents wanted me to go to college, so I did, and I graduated, and there were no offers of marriage at that time, so I worked for a few years. I really, really wanted to be married, though. I hated being single. I got
married, about 5 years after ending college, and continued to work part-time until the children came along, then severely curtailed work, and finally quit. So I know nothing of being on the brink of having a career, then putting it off
for motherhood right away, and I do not miss it at all, to be honest.
<< What do you think Carolyn’s biggest issue is? >>
It’s hard to say. She could be struggling with post-partum depression, or it may be as simple as jealousy and envy of her neighbor and her husband. It isn’t just the wife that struggles, btw, during these years. Her husband
could be having problems, too. He could be wishing to get out from under the strain of having to provide for his family. He could be doing things that are under the radar, such as sexual fantasies and pornography. Perhaps neither one of them are in a good community of believers. Perhaps both of them are isolated, or are feeling that way. All other things being equal, she will feel a lot better if she does some work first before looking at books and surfing the internet. If she works at connecting with her husband. She may indeed need to take some time for herself, but not the way she is doing with her mental escapes into books and the net – for exercise and fitness, for example. She may not be scheduling enough bathtub time for herself if that’s how she unwinds. It doesn’t all have to be related to self-centeredness. She may need some organizational skills to help her.
<< Do you think this is a common issue for women? >>
I think it is a very common issue for some mothers with multiple children. I was told that the mothers of the early 1960s that they were in awe of Jacqueline Kennedy and her poise, beauty, and charm, and that was their dream – to be kept, have beautiful hairdos, lovely clothes, and to not have to be alone so much and out of sight. Each generation deals with these kinds of issues.
Sarah Mae:
So, in what ways did Carolyn resonate with you?
More ways than I care to admit! I would say that my perspective has been changing…I do not think the same way Carolyn does, but my actions are very similiar to hers – messy home, unkept look, etc.
In what ways do you differ from Carolyn?
I don’t buy into the “my life could be better if…” thing. I wouldn’t trade being a homemaker and full-time mommy for anything – even on those crazy days!
What do you think Carolyn’s biggest issue is?
Her attitude…lies she is believing
Do you think this is a common issue for women?
YES! It is so easy to let our thoughts go negative, which lead the way to foolish living and behavior.
Stacy:
So, in what ways did Carolyn resonate with you?
It was a transition (culture shock) for me to go from working woman with one child (and single) to being a pregnant wife and mother of 5 children in less than a year. This rocked my world. The hardest part for me was no longer having a “perfect” house with clean walls and a peaceful atmosphere. I cried a lot because I couldn’t keep up and I was determined to – even if it killed me (and it almost did! LOL). God had to bring me to my knees and make me truly needy to see that I couldn’t (and shouldn’t) “do it all.” To show me what was important and what wasn’t.
While motherhood and homemaking was still what I wanted more than anything, I wanted it MY way. I still wanted to look perfectly manicured and dressed to the hilt each day. I wanted all of Jessica’s “Little People” to stay on the shelf, facing the front, nicely in a row. I even wanted my carpet to keep the vacuum lines (no kidding!). In Passionate Housewives, when I mentioned the ”marble sink,” I was trying to give a word picture of what life was like in the neighborhoods where I grew up in Houston. Homes were new. Bathtubs shined. Everyone wanted marble sinks, Corian counters, and custom kitchens and bathrooms. It was yuppie land. Many moms I knew were like me; they wanted to keep their homes a “certain” way, and children (and many times, finances, when you’re on one income) get in the way of that. Here is the quote from the book:
“Finally, after spending long days watching dancing alphabet people on television; making organic, fat-free baby food; driving Johnny to soccer; discovering that undisciplined children don’t obey; and washing dirty diapers in her marble sink; the exhausted ‘professional’ stay-at-home mom burns out and goes back to work where at least she was appreciated and life was ‘easier.’”
I saw moms who gave up careers to come home and found that life was not as glamorous as they imagined. They tried to superimpose the “professional life” into the home and they felt defeated. They read all the latest child training books, and tried to do everything perfectly; but, they found it wasn’t real – it wasn’t “natural.” They were trying to turn their homes into a daycare and it was not “real life.” Moms also found that motherhood is often a “thankless” job. That may sound like a cliché, but it is a truth that moms need to know going into it. Servanthood is giving and it means sacrifice. Jesus calls every Christian to this. If we’re not focused on what we’re “not getting” then we won’t notice when we don’t get it. I’m much happier this way. J
Homemaking is a job that is never, ever completely done. You don’t always get a pat on the back from the boss (but a good husband should do his best! J), and the work day doesn’t end at 5:00. There are no bonuses, no pay, no intellectually stimulating projects (unless you count homeschooling), and often no adult interaction. And the thing that was the hardest for me was that I never seemed to have UNDISTRACTED time to work. Trying to clean the house, cook, pay bills, organize laundry, toys, kitchen, bathroom—whatever, would take no time at all if I could complete those duties alone – uninterrupted! But I have to somehow do it with little ones pulling on my skirt, spilling drinks, asking thousands of questions, bickering, coloring on the wall, having to go potty, cleaning up where someone wasn’t SUPPOSED to go potty, and yes, washing diapers in my “just washed” marble sink. (Not that I ever had a real marble sink, by the way! LOL)
Some of these things were part of what inspired that chapter. All those things are real struggles we face, but I wanted to point moms to the joy that’s in the midst of it all, when our focus is right. Does that make sense?
Lynn:
Regarding the portrait of Carolyn in PHDFG: let me throw out a very realistic, though hypothetical anecdote, based on my experience on a rehabilitation unit, plus a real live conversation I had with a close friend yesterday. Then, I’ll try as best as I can to explain why I wrote this.
Let’s say an elderly female has a stroke on the left side of her brain, which affects her right side body movements, and leaves her unable to speak, though she can possibly understand everything said to her. Her chief medical issues at
this time are stabilization and recovery as much as possible, and rehabilitation for where recovery does not occur.
1) There is a tendency to get your mind over-focused on the chief problem this woman has, to the exclusion of other matters that might exist and need to be dealt with.
2) There is always a tendency to depersonalize people, who come as whole packages, by putting labels on them. The labels might be very true – for example – “I’m working with a left CVA, right hemi with expressive aphasia today in the parallel bars.” This is true, but humanly speaking I’m seeing if I can help Mrs. Smith recover some balance, transfer, and ambulate safely so she can go back home.
But getting back to number 1) — the stroke may not be Mrs. Smith’s only problem. There can be a tendency to overlook other problems which contribute to her recovery and rehabilitation. Let’s say Mrs. Smith was getting some pretty
painful osteoarthritis in her right knee, but was compensating for it well enough prior to her stroke, by taking ibuprofin, and her physician didn’t know about it. In the emergent phase of recovery, things can fly under the radar screen. But when you try to get Mrs. Smith to transfer or stand on her stronger side (her left side), she can’t. She hasn’t taken her ibuprofin, and her knee hurts, and she can’t tell you except to make signs. The rehab team realizes that orthopedic doctors need to be called in, and she may require some medications and/or surgery to help this
problem so she can utilize her stronger leg without pain.
3) The solutions to real problems we face may come from places that surprise us.
Re 3) – here’s a real life situation. One I found out about yesterday from a friend I’m getting reconnected with after about 15 years. Her firstborn son is 17, and she explained how he was an early reader, and his reading level has always been “off the charts” as she told me. However, she could not get him to work with math or writing in homeschooling. His reading comprehension was fine, but he would fly into rages with her and become defiant with her, and her perception was he only wanted to do what HE wanted to do, and so there was a power struggle, which didn’t help matters. She eventually put him in a Christian school and his orthography etc. continued to “stink.” The teachers all assured her that by the time he was a little older, it would be better, boys are slower after all, don’t worry, etc.. But it didn’t get better. It took a move, and a decision to place him in a public school, who evaluated him for learning disabilities, and they didn’t get it right the first time, but eventually he was diagnosed with what is called “dysgraphia.” I don’t know anything about
it, other than when he was allowed to use a computer to do his work, and got intervention for the rest, his grades skyrocketed. And his mother tells me she still is dealing with repercussions from making his brain issues character ones, and for labeling him as “lazy.” She intimated to me that sometimes what a child needs is not parents who have no clue, or Christian or public schools that slough off problems. Sometimes the help you get is where a large sector of Christendom (ie – the homeschooling movement) will tell you you can’t go, on account of all the corruption. And that is a public school system that tries its best to help diagnose problems so children are not so frustrated and can succeed. This is a very real story I just related.
Ok – Carolyn. Carolyn’s problem with envy of working women, her possible mild depression does NOT exist in a vacuum. It may be her chief problem, but it may not be her only problem. Does she need to get her eyes off our materialistic culture? I thoroughly agree. But I just want to remind myself at this juncture that although she will need a
reminder that this life isn’t about us (I’ve read on), that her calling to be with her children and build the home is a high calling that Radical Feminism has tried to make into meaningless, slavish, drudgery, that there may be other things
she’s facing and has to deal with during her “rehabilitation phase.” Things that well meaning Christians can overlook, and perhaps even physicians and others might not get right the first time around. That – and based on the conversation I had yesterday – the solutions to her problems might not fit into neat little categories that we would like to have them
fit into. And instead of focusing on the labels of “feminist,” it is always good to get back to the person you are dealing with — which is Carolyn.
In order to make the first chapter work well, you have to make some assumptions. You have to assume that Carolyn’s husband does see when she’s exhausted and pitches in; he does spend as much time with his children as he possibly can, their relationship is generally good, that Carolyn does not have underlying medical issues, and it’s also would be helpful to assume they are in a good church.
Anne:
> Too much time on the internet.
I have this problem myself, Lynn!
> It’s hard to say. She could be struggling with post-partum >depression
This is a great point. I think sometimes we focus on what a joyous thing it is to have a baby, we forget to tell women that they may feel isolated, and depressed. It’s a huge change, motherhood, and there are so many chemical changes. Women shouldn’t feel bad or guilty about post-partum depression. There is help, and many of us have also dealt with it.
> Stacy said: Some of these things were part of what inspired that chapter. All those things are real struggles we face, but I wanted to point moms to the joy that’s in the midst of it all, when our focus is right. Does that make sense?
Everything you said made sense to me! And I think using this example was actually a great way to start the book. Because so many of us have issues similar to Carolyn’s and it helped us see in what ways this book was going to be useful to us.
Carolyn’s story resonated with me in that I often feel overwhelmed, especially if I’ve let things go. Sometimes I feel like everyone else has it all together and I’m trying desperately to keep my home and family in order!
I differ from Carolyn in that while I do love what I do, my ultimate dream has always been wife and motherhood. I have no desire to be in the workforce at all.
I think Carolyn’s biggest issue is a lack of contentment with where she is and what she has. When we can find peace about being who we are, where God has placed us, and work to do the best job we can right now, I think we’re all a lot
happier.
I think this is a very common issue for women. Especially those of us who, like me, were really raised to become working women. In my case, for example, I love being at home, caring for my husband, my children, and my house. But I feel ill equipped. I’m behind. Because I wasn’t trained for this work. I want to do well, but become frustrated when I don’t think I am. I think it may be some of that frustration that leads women to want to be back in the work force where they at least feel that they know what they’re doing.
Janet:
So, in what ways did Carolyn resonate with you?
Carolyn’s story resonated with me in that I can tend to get depressed and give up if I let things go. Or if we’re putting in a septic system. (smile) She seemed overwhelmed, and ready to believe that the lady across the street had it all together. The truth is that none of us have it all together. We may have perfectly tidy homes, yet we snap at the kids. We may have messy kitchens, yet we’ve spent a couple of fruitful hours snuggling on the couch with a sick child.
In what ways do you differ from Carolyn?
I am older than Carolyn. Most of my children are grown, or growing…I only have one under 10. I am happy to be home, and I do not long to have a career. I worked recently for a couple of years on a part-time basis for a ministry that I LOVE, but even though I was only away two days per week, the entire house fell apart. It’s just not worth it to me.
What do you think Carolyn’s biggest issue is?
She doesn’t see the value of her calling. In fact, she doesn’t see being a keeper at home AS a calling. So, she is not contented, and she is not resting in the fact that this is exactly where she is supposed to be, and what she is supposed to be doing. She needs to have her perspective changed. That would make all the difference.
Do you think this is a common issue for women?
I think this is a very common issue for women. They have been fed the lie that there is fulfillment in a career that is not possible if you are a stay-at-home wife and mother. They want to make something of themselves, to leave a mark on the world, to receive those pats on the back from their co-workers or bosses. They can’t imagine feeling fulfilled if they “just” stay at home.
Note: Feel free to discuss in the comments section, but Jennifer and I decided that we did not want this to be a place to ask questions of Stacy McDonald. Too often that’s turned into a bash fest, and we don’t want that to happen here. Thank you for understanding.
As of 6/18/09 Comments have been closed.